Volksgarden

[Murray]

What about this for an idea !!

[dufflight]

Omega garden. The shifting gravity is ment to make the plants grow stronger. One light in the center. I toyed with the idea of floating one on the pool and use the water return line to keep it moving. Leave the plants on a pivet so they stand up and use sunlight instead of a light globe. But it is the plant going upside down that improves growth.

[RupertofOZ]

If it's anything like a normal Volksgarden... it'll be fine rolling down hill ...

But will struggle like hell getting back up the other side... :mrgreen:

[CompConAquaSCRogCGE 5.0]

Think about how the system rotates for a complete rotation for a moment. Consider that the gravitational pull on the plants help them grow more robustly and in cohort with the Hydro Grow 504W for efficiency. Now imagine how strawberries, tomatoes and other such weighted crops will respond throughout their life cycles. My only concern that I would like to raise is the possibility that certain crops may not respond favorably due to bruising and stem damage as a result of constant movement. For example the straw berry will fall from one side of the plant to the opposite at the point where the plant is on the upward rotation into the upside down position. This will mean that the berry will act as a stone crashing through the vegetation. I propose that this system is a very good propagation tool for seedling starts for larger growing systems (i.e. aquaponic, hydroponic or aeroponic) but is limited in the capacity to bring heavy fruit baring crops through the fruiting stage effectively without aide.

I also note a possible problem with crop transference from the cylinder to a horizontal or vertical crop system. Compatibility with the process is hindered because of the size of the hole for which the plant is held. The pot which holds the plant and media slides into place and there is enough space for the stalk of the plant. If you were to attempt removal of a plant from the system you would need to handle the plant very delicately or risk damaging it as it passes through the small hole in the bottom of the cylinder. In addition to that issue there is also media transference; (i.e. coir cube to hydroton, shale or 3/4" gravel) The cubes may be destroyed or the root system damaged in the process of removal unless the cube is simply inserted into the next media along with the plant. Either way the cubes can not be recycled for the same use to my knowledge.

I am not criticizing the Volksgarden, only noting it's limitations. I really like this idea and it has resolved a problem in one of my program ideas involving fish breeding that revolved around water ph level discrepancy.

The problem:
PH requirements for broodfish (breeder fish) and stock fish (grown for eating) have different system specifications for peak production. Since the production goals are very different the PH levels are different. This is a problem because this means that to produce fry (baby fish), the breeding fish need to be isolated into a separate tank not connected to the main production tank. This allows the user to change the system parameters (environmental conditions) to allow for breeding to occur. An example of this is for Mollies and Swordtails (common household fish species sold in petshops). Mollies and Swordtails require a PH of 8.0 for breeding, but if you wanted a stable population without increase you need to drop the PH to 7.0.

The other half of the problem is that since we are discussing an Aquaponic recirculating system we must include a separate hydroponics system to the Broodtank to prevent increasing nitrates from reaching toxic levels. The actual problem becomes the PH because certain nutrients become locked up and unavailable to plants at different PH levels (Thank you Murray!).

The Solution:
Since a broodtank is significantly smaller than a full scale aquaponics production system, a more compact hydroponics half of the system is needed and on a smaller scale. When discussing profitability in a commercial setting one must be aware of several factors including: profit/sq ft ratio, obsolescence of equipment, depreciation scheduling and opportunity losses; just to name a few. These are on the management side of the issue, but what do they have to do with the Volksgarden and the Hydro Grow Vertical Light system? Or the broodtank? If a business is going to breed it's own fish for scale production, it looks at price vs returns on lifespan of equipment. If a piece of equipment is $5k and lasts 5 years, that means it must show returns of at least $83.34/month just to break even (assuming no further equipment operating costs, straight-line depreciation method and the following math: $5k/60months= $83.34/month). The Volksgarden costs $2,595 @ OmegaGarden.com and the 504W Penetrator LED Grow Light is $1,500 @ Hydrogroled.com. The Warranty on the led kit is for 3 years, any business doing proper accounting is going to use 3 years as the depreciation schedule for taxes- regardless if it will last 15 years or not (Ask an accountant, I could be wrong) due to obsolescence. I have no idea how long the Volksgarden will last, so lets assume 5 years for sake of discussion.

Rough total cost of equipment is $4,095.00 with a lifespan of 3 and 5 years. The depreciation schedule (straight-line method) for each is 43.25/month for the Volksgarden and $41.67/month for the 504W Penetrator LED Grow Light at a total monthly depreciation cost of $84.92. Then there is the electrical cost of the light, motor and water pump to factor (which I won't get into). The bottom line is that to make a profit the fish and vegetables produced in the broodtank system needs to exceed cost of production in value. In layman's terms: Value of Fish + Value of Vegetables = >Cost of production and operating expenses. In this example the estimate is more than $84.92* per month. *S&H was not factored into the equation because it is a direct cost and listed elsewhere in a balance sheet for accounting purposes.

So you can tell already that this system is a complete and utter success as far as a solution to my problem because the value of the fry alone exceeds the monthly depreciation costs and the vegetables can match or exceed the operating expenses depending on the crop(s). For those of you who are confused, broodfish of the Tilapia species are reported to produce 200+ fry per "brooding" and they can be sold for $1.00-$3.00 each (in my area) and online can reach $50 for 15. The program I'm working on building will use this equipment to produce both fish and plant starts for a much larger system within the same facility. I strongly recommend taking a look at both of these equipment pieces before considering a purchase. Just remember that with LED's the focus is on the plant's response- NOT THE PRICE TAG!!!
:p

[fishman]

just a short note livebearers mollies etc will breed in any ph above 6 we recommend that customers keep them around 7.0
cheers
byron

[Jon Ezrine]

Looks like something out of 2001: A Space Oddity. ;]

[Yabbies4me]

When discussing profitability in a commercial setting one must be aware of several factors including: profit/sq ft ratio, obsolescence of equipment, depreciation scheduling and opportunity losses; just to name a few.

and the 504W Penetrator LED Grow Light is $1,500

Just remember that with LED's the focus is on the plant's response- NOT THE PRICE TAG!!!

If you want to do an ROI analysis, don't forget to factor in the cost of a new HID light kit... for when you come to the realisation that the LED's aren't up to the job!

On a Yield/Growth rate v's Power used basis, to achieve comparable results you will require far more LED wattage than you would with HID... and the initial purchase price is around 500% more... the only benefit is to the LED manufacturers bank account.

These comments are drawn from experience. I have a $2400 LED light kit that I use for raising seedlings, because that's all it's good for!... I also have a number of customers that have drawn the same conclusion.

While other shops around me sell and even recommend LED's, I refuse to sell them now. Where they sell a customer a $1600, 450w LED light kit (this is in Aust don't forget), I'll sell a customer with the same sqm a high quality 600w HID light kit for $300... my customers achieve well over twice the yield. Even those using a 400w HID light kit in the same area acheive more yield than the 450w LED's, I've had them quote figures of between 15%-50% more.

Not a wise short term economic decision on my behalf I know, more a long term one (angry customers don't come back)... and an ethical one.

Until the LED technology catches up and exceeds HID on a Light output v's Wattage used basis, and the price becomes more comparable... I don't see any benefit in LED's.

...:p

[bigdaddy]

If it's anything like a normal Volksgarden... it'll be fine rolling down hill ...

But will struggle like hell getting back up the other side... :mrgreen:

Yes too right...But no probs if you reverse them up the hills....:(

Cheers.

[CompConAquaSCRogCGE 5.0]

If you want to do an ROI analysis, don't forget to factor in the cost of a new HID light kit... for when you come to the realisation that the LED's aren't up to the job!

On a Yield/Growth rate v's Power used basis, to achieve comparable results you will require far more LED wattage than you would with HID... and the initial purchase price is around 500% more... the only benefit is to the LED manufacturers bank account.

These comments are drawn from experience. I have a $2400 LED light kit that I use for raising seedlings, because that's all it's good for!... I also have a number of customers that have drawn the same conclusion.

While other shops around me sell and even recommend LED's, I refuse to sell them now. Where they sell a customer a $1600, 450w LED light kit (this is in Aust don't forget), I'll sell a customer with the same sqm a high quality 600w HID light kit for $300... my customers achieve well over twice the yield. Even those using a 400w HID light kit in the same area acheive more yield than the 450w LED's, I've had them quote figures of between 15%-50% more.

Not a wise short term economic decision on my behalf I know, more a long term one (angry customers don't come back)... and an ethical one.

Until the LED technology catches up and exceeds HID on a Light output v's Wattage used basis, and the price becomes more comparable... I don't see any benefit in LED's.

...:p

I have actually spent several hundred hours researching Aquaponics, LED's, HID's, HPS's, and a whole slew of other related topics. I direct your attention to this video for clarification on the current topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84zh7XL15n8.

NASA did research in space on the wheat plant testing LED technology (use Google Scholar to find it) and there have been multiple tests determining the effects of blue, red, green, IR (purple/white) and white LED's. The conclusion is if you did a quick youtube search, that HID lights are more efficient than the UFO LED model. I will agree with you that they are over priced in comparison. But when you are looking at a long term capital investment you must consider each option and factor it's FV (future value, for those of you who are not finance/management majors). The FV of a project is determined by it's initial cost, ongoing expenses and expected return on investment (ROI). The FV factors the lifespan of the equipment (the total time in service) and the time it will take to break even on the project. The break even point is where the project has paid for itself and will now start turning a profit.

I am not going to argue against your point, because there are several different LED kits out there that are not worth the time/money. In fact, it is significantly cheaper to build a kit yourself than it is to buy one, but if you are starting a business founded on the science behind Aquaponics, there are several different things you must be aware of. For example, when it is more cost effective to outsource labor in exchange for time. This means not taking a month to build something to save $1000 when if you can pay the extra $1000 and get started 3 weeks earlier. With this particular subject, based on the video I linked you to, 3 weeks is enough time to start earning a revenue.

Lost time is translated into lost revenues in business. I understand that your personal experience has been that LED's are overpriced and under-performing. I am not questioning that. But I am questioning your condemnation of LED's altogether. For example, HID and HPS are massive electricity hogs. What you make up for with a cheap initial sticker price is a huge bill at the end of the month, which eats into any profits you might have earned had you used LEDs. In addition, we have not even explored the subject of alternative energy (separate conversation). LED's allow the user to limit the space of their project, which in the Aquaponics industry means more productivity. HPS and HID lamps get hot, meaning they must be a certain distance from the plants at all times or the plants will burn. In Aquaponics, most commercial operations are conducted outdoors, making lights irrelevant (unless for seasonal manipulation). But when you get into subjects like GMO's and Urban Greenhouses, that is when the subject of lights becomes a heated debate.

This ends the argument effectively: Ignoring the price tags for a minute...
LED's: Can be closer to the plant, allowing for more growing space to be utilized. (Think of a 10'x10'x10' room for this comparison) Smaller operational expense (electricity) and longer lifespan. Government sponsorship (Subsidies) offered for "Green Technology" improvements for businesses.

HPS, MH HID's: High light spectrum output for outstanding results with plant response. Hot, can damage plants if improperly managed. High electric bill associated with commercial production. Bulbs may not be touched by bare hands due to oil from hands will shatter bulb once it is turned back on. Can not be handled when hot.

The payback period is much shorter for LED's than HPS or MH HID's because of the electrical bill and production space requirements. With the HID's vs. the LED's, the production space is exactly the same: 4x4, but because of inventions like the Volksgarden, the same 4x4 space is really 4x4x2, whereas the HIDs are 4x4x4. What this means is that in the same amount of space you can fit a HID operated Aquaponic system, you can fit 2 Volksgardens and have a higher fish/gal ratio in the tank. This means you've doubled your production quantity in the same amount of occupied space. Since the LED's have a longer lifespan, cooler operating temperature and lower operational cost it is smarter to get LED's in an indoor commercial operation. It means larger profits in the long run. That is why they cost 5x the cost of HIDs.

As for your argument, it's all a question of light spectrum output, intensity, electrical consumption, payback period, general health of plant and production speed. If the test used to compare LED and HID are not equal, why do you expect the results to be fair? The most common error with LED users is incorrect distancing from the plant canopy to the LEDs. Check your testing parameters again and add a Spectrometer to your testing conditions. As for light spectrum analysis, NASA recommends 10%-15% Blue and the remainder Red. You CAN put 1% green in there, but it only serves to increase vision characteristics for humans. Means you can see the foliage better. Green is useless for plant response. And YES, NASA divided the research into growing stages: Vegetation, Flowering, and Seeding (Maturity).

Any remaining questions or responses?
If you are still stuck on the price tag issue then you didn't understand anything I said.

[Abdullah]

It looks very futurist but must expensive. What stop the plant falling out of the box?

[Yabbies4me]

Any remaining questions or responses?
If you are still stuck on the price tag issue then you didn't understand anything I said.

This from your second post on the forum… what an arrogant piece of work you are!...

I have been through this extensively on other threads, but here goes... again!


I have actually spent several hundred hours researching Aquaponics, LED's, HID's, HPS's, and a whole slew of other related topics.

So have I Champ!... I’m a Horticulturalist by trade, have about 20 years experience in Hydroponics, have a owned a retail hydroponic store for the last twelve years, and have not only tested and trialled LED’s myself, but have also witnessed customers LED trials first hand, including side-by-side LED v's HID trials.


NASA did research in space on the wheat plant testing LED technology (use Google Scholar to find it) and there have been multiple tests determining the effects of blue, red, green, IR (purple/white) and white LED's. As for light spectrum analysis, NASA recommends 10%-15% Blue and the remainder Red.

The LED's I imported were made by the same company that developed them in conjunction with NASA… and who at the time were considered the leaders in LED technology.


If the test used to compare LED and HID are not equal, why do you expect the results to be fair?

Who said they weren’t equal???... I extensively questioned the manufacturers before making the purchase, through numerous emails and phone conversations, regarding the suitability of the LED's for my customer’s particular growing requirements and grow room areas. I was assured by the manufacturers that the LED arrays they sold me were suitable for their intended purpose and growing area etc.

The first trials we conducted were on identical, side-by-side, 1m² grow rooms using a 600w HPS in one and an LED array, recommended by the manufacturer for that sized room, in the other. In fact the manufacturer claimed the LED arrays they sold me would put out the equivalent, in plant useable light, of about 900w of HPS lighting, therefore giving my customers 50% more plant useable light and ultimately more yield.

My customers followed the supplied instructions exactly in regards to set-up, distance from the plants etc. They all achieved about a 1/4 of their normal yield. Naturally I contacted the manufacturer, who, as to be expected, blamed the customers growing techniques and came up with a number of things they believed my customers did wrong.
I asked them to draw up another, more extensive set of instructions for using the LED's, which they emailed to me and which involved using “supplementary” lighting in addition to the LED’s. My customers followed the new instructions to the letter for their second attempts, including adding supplementary lighting... and again they yielded only about 1/4 of their usual yield.


The most common error with LED users is incorrect distancing from the plant canopy to the LEDs.

See previous paragraph.


With the HID's vs. the LED's, the production space is exactly the same: 4x4, but because of inventions like the Volksgarden, the same 4x4 space is really 4x4x2, whereas the HIDs are 4x4x4. What this means is that in the same amount of space you can fit a HID operated Aquaponic system, you can fit 2 Volksgardens and have a higher fish/gal ratio in the tank.

What???... How does that make any sense?... When you’ve already stated that NASA deduced that HID was more effective than LED. How did you come to the conclusion that the Volksgarden using LED’s allows the same amount of plant material to be grown in half the space of HID’s?... Are you basing your argument on the LED's being used in the Volksgarden v's a HID light over a traditional flat surface?... What would happen if a HID was used in place of the LED’s in the Volksgarden?… especially seeing as NASA have proven the HID’s to be more effective!


The payback period is much shorter for LED's than HPS or MH HID's because of the electrical bill and production space requirements.

That is absolutely untrue and unfounded…

I have a customer that has experimented with a number of different LED arrays and is now using a latest generation 450w array. The array sells for $1600 in Australia, about $900 in the US. He has replaced a 400w HPS light kit with the 450w LED array. By his own admission he is getting about 15% less yield and the growth period is slightly longer, but he is happy because his system is generating far less heat.

Did you understand what I said?... I’ll spell it out for you!... About 12.5% more power consumption... 15% less yield... over a longer grow period... for a light kit that sells in Australia for $1600. At $250, a 400w HPS light kit is less than 1/6th the price and will yield 15% more in the same area.

Most LED manufacturers quote an effective life of 10 years, at which point about 10% of the LED’s will have “expired” and the array will need replacing... Let’s do the math!...

A 400w HPS light kit with an initial outlay of $250 (or as little as $150 on ebay etc, but for arguments sake we’ll work on retail store prices), with a new globe every 12 months at about $60ea… gives a total after 10 years of $850.

The 450w LED array costs $1600 here in Australia, but let’s say for arguments sake he imported it from the US at $900 (which this guy did), after ten years he would still be $50 in front with the HPS light and 15% up on yield… How is the LED a better option?... The only benefit he could attribute to the LED was less heat, that was his primary concern, so it worked for him in that regard… but from a commercial production POV, that would be an unacceptable outcome.

If you are talking LED v’s HID on anything other than fancy lettuce or small leafy greens etc… LED’s DO NOT USE LESS ELECTRICITY THAN HID LIGHTS!!!... To get an effective yield from fruiting plants, such as tomatoes or capsicums, using LED you have to use as much, if not more wattage per m² than HID.


As for your argument, it's all a question of light spectrum output, intensity, electrical consumption, payback period, general health of plant and production speed.

I have trialled LED’s for growing Fancy lettuce and small leafy greens, while the plants grew okay, when harvested, plants that had been turgid upon harvest, were limp within minutes… not a good outcome for commercial growers wanting to use LED's as their primary or sole light source.
Admittedly, lettuce, Bok-choy etc, that I've grown under HID light have also gone limp after harvesting, but nowhere near as quickly, usually about an hour for lettuce, and a couple of hours for Bok-choy, but I'm normally able to get them home and refrigerate them before they do... not so with the LED grown plants.

The only place I have seen LED’s used on a commercial scale, was as “supplementary” lighting in a glasshouse, to extend daylight hours, or add light during overcast conditions. It was in a video from Canada or Holland from memory.

In the video you supplied, the LED unit used 500w of electricity (light only, doesn’t include motor, pump, extraction fans etc) to get a maximum of 80 lettuce to a harvestable size in 4 weeks (I know it says three weeks for some of the lettuce in the video, and while I’ve done that myself, I think 4 weeks is more realistic over all), running 16hrs per day.

Here in WA, at $0.23c per kWh, that would cost $52. Provided you could fit 80 fancy lettuce in the system, which I don’t think you could and still get them to marketable size… that’s still $0.65c per lettuce… that’s not far off what a grower would get paid wholesale per head of hydroponic lettuce... What’s the going rate Rupe?

As I’ve said before, I believe the latest generation LED’s to be suitable for a hobby grower growing leafy greens, herbs etc, provided money is no object. I don’t believe they are up to speed yet in regards to electrical efficiency (which is the primary selling point of LED manufacturers) v's yield. On a flat growing surface, I could grow 1m² of leafy greens under a 400w MH for an outlay of about $200-$230 (maybe $150 on ebay)… to get similar growth in a 1m² area using LED’s I would need to buy at least a 450w array for $1600, or $900 imported from the US… that’s some expensive lettuce. If the Volksgarden type system was utilised, for both LED and HID, the HID would still out-perform the LED’s

Most people contemplating growing veggies indoors, do so because they live in areas with long, cold winters, so the heat from a HID (HPS or MH) lamp is actually beneficial. If using LED’s they would probably need to include supplementary heating… adding even further cost to their already expensive leafy greens.

I have said on here numerous times before… Until someone can show me a conclusive, comparative trial where LED’s produce similar growth rates, plant health, internodal spacing and yields etc, using substantially less power than HID lighting… AT A COMPARABLE PRICE!... I don't see any benefit and I’m not interested in LED’s... and won’t be recommending them to my customers.

I'm looking forward to the day that is achieved... but I'm not holding my breath.

Any remaining questions or responses?... If you are still stuck on the price tag issue then you didn't understand anything I said!...
.

[fishfood]

What about this for an idea !!

Dident a mob in nimben invent something like that a few years ago and patent it

[Yabbies4me]

Hey FF, Howzit going?

Didn't you buy some LED's, how did they go?

Cheers, Yabbies.
.

[Murray]

Yeah FF, how are you travelling mate?

[JonSchroeder]

What about this for an idea !!
Murray, Is anyone using that omega garden system(or any circular system)? Unfortunately I've only seen one person,a teacher, using this online and everyone else is trying to grow weed with it. I would love to see this type of system up against, standard DWC and Floating Raft systems. Anyone doing that?

[Yabbies4me]

Hi Jon, welcome to the forum.

For most aquaponics practitioners, sustainabilty and lowering the cost of their food production are primary concern concerns. The Omega garden and similar systems are expensive to buy and costly to run.

Cashed-up weed growers and a teacher that doesn't have to pay for the system and the ongoing running costs, may not see these costs as inhibitive, but most others would IMO.
.