Melbourne Newbie

[wendysul]

Saw Murray's book in the newsagency 12 months ago and have been looking forward to putting a system together ever since. My pump is on its way - the submersible 3000 from the online store - which will churn out 3080 lph. I will pick up 2 x 1000L IBC's tomorrow for fish tanks. I have an 1100L spa to use as a sump and 5 x 230L blue barrels to cut in half lengthwise to use as growbeds.
Having trawled this forum a little I intend to use the suggestion of a vortex over the FT to oxygenate.
No pics yet as it's not together yet, but a few Q's if anybody can help.

1. My blue barrels are the screw on lid type so when I split them the lid will fall off and the only solution I can think of is to silicon the lid on prior to splitting the barrel, and to sit the split barrel in a treated pine frame to hold the lid on - any other suggestions ?

2. I imagine 19mm black poly is easier to work with to connect everything up & cheaper also. Is there any reason/circumstance not to use it ? Most systems I've looked at seem to use a combo of 19mm black poly & larger white piping - what is the rule of thumb here & why ?

Thanks & will post further as I go.:broc1:

[RupertofOZ]

Use 25mm soft PVC rather than the 19mm.. less likely to become clogged with bio-film buildup... easier to manipulate... and drains faster...

[wendysul]

Thanks Rupert (or is it John) - the reason I thought to use 19mm was that most of the fittings in the aquaponics.net shop are that size - any comments there ?

[RupertofOZ]

19mm will work... and many hydro setups still use that size... but 25mm is becoming more standard...

[wendysul]

thanks... but what are you doing up at this hour ??

[fishfood]

thanks... but what are you doing up at this hour ??
Instead a photo of a kiwi he should have an owl as his aviator[

[fishfood]

Saw Murray's book in the newsagency 12 months ago and have been looking forward to putting a system together ever since. My pump is on its way - the submersible 3000 from the online store - which will churn out 3080 lph. I will pick up 2 x 1000L IBC's tomorrow for fish tanks. I have an 1100L spa to use as a sump and 5 x 230L blue barrels to cut in half lengthwise to use as growbeds.
Having trawled this forum a little I intend to use the suggestion of a vortex over the FT to oxygenate.
No pics yet as it's not together yet, but a few Q's if anybody can help.

1. My blue barrels are the screw on lid type so when I split them the lid will fall off and the only solution I can think of is to silicon the lid on prior to splitting the barrel, and to sit the split barrel in a treated pine frame to hold the lid on - any other suggestions ?

2. I imagine 19mm black poly is easier to work with to connect everything up & cheaper also. Is there any reason/circumstance not to use it ? Most systems I've looked at seem to use a combo of 19mm black poly & larger white piping - what is the rule of thumb here & why ?

Thanks & will post further as I go.:broc1:
Welcome to the madness there's no turning back now
Ha a blank canvass i can see 2 ibc/s as fish tanks running chop [90 mm of course ] dropping to 50 mm for feed to the grow beds with ether loop or bell syphons to the spa sump where the 3000 gall pump returns it to the fish tanks via your spray bar
I also see 1 ibc with trout [over winter ] and the other with silver perch all the year to keep things going
running trout you will need an air pump [trout need plenty of air]
another bit of advice is plan think think again its easier to do it once and ask lots of questians

[wendysul]

Hey Fishfood -

thanks for the input (and the visualization) - could you pls. explain why you see the 90mm & 50mm pipe versus the price benefit & flexibility of 19mm and bearing in mind RupertofOz's comments about 25mm ?

Thought I would do the Mark II version of Chop also with water constantly being cycled between sump & FT.

I like the idea of running trout in Winter in one tank and was just coming to the conclusion that if I got this thing up over the next month then put Silver Perch in - they wouldn't have grown out by the time the Trout were due to start, so I would then have to squish them into one tank to finish growing if I wanted the Trout.

Do you think the vortex idea will provide enough air to avoid needing an air pump ?

[fishfood]

Hey Fishfood -

thanks for the input (and the visualization) - could you pls. explain why you see the 90mm & 50mm pipe versus the price benefit & flexibility of 19mm and bearing in mind RupertofOz's comments about 25mm ?

Thought I would do the Mark II version of Chop also with water constantly being cycled between sump & FT.

I like the idea of running trout in Winter in one tank and was just coming to the conclusion that if I got this thing up over the next month then put Silver Perch in - they wouldn't have grown out by the time the Trout were due to start, so I would then have to squish them into one tank to finish growing if I wanted the Trout.

Do you think the vortex idea will provide enough air to avoid needing an air pump ?
Where to start 5 barrels cut thats 10 growbeds your pump running 19 or 25 mil will be flatout supplying the beds that is if you are pumping direct to the beds 25 mm wont run quick enough if you are using it for chopstyle of water flow to 10 beds
trout and silvers wont work in the same tank trout love silvers yum
Vortex are ok but its your only air supply and if something goes wrong its by by fishies
most large fish kills on both forums is lack of air one way or another
Chop 2 is good but for a newby if its not running correctly you will get you fishtank gradually getting dirtier

[fishfood]

Just went back and looked at chop 2 drawing chop 2 definitely wont work with 10 grow beds it was designed for 2 or3 beds max best to do chop 1 if you are running a few beds and using chop 1 water is constantly being filtered as i said 19 or 25 mm wont feed 10 beds
I know its a fair way but a nice drive to the macendon ranges one sunday will give you a better insite on how a system works

[wendysul]

Sorry to bug you Fishfood & yes, Mt macedon is a fair old drive, though I appreciate the offer - can you elaborate on why the Chop II won't work with 10 half barrels ? No limitations referred to in Murray's outline ?

[bill newton]

tooooo many wendys in the forum!!!

welcome to the OBSESSION !!!!

i lived in melb for 25 yrs (north eastern suburbs - montmorency) until we saw the light and moved to paradise

we're on a couple of acres on the sunshine coast - aquaponics - rainforest - chooks - WEEDS!! - now i'm retired now i'll have time to get on top of the garden (yea right)

as i said welcome to the obsession -- you'll be wondering what you did before aquaponics soon!!!

carna pies!!!drinkanim

[fishfood]

Sorry to bug you Fishfood & yes, Mt macedon is a fair old drive, though I appreciate the offer - can you elaborate on why the Chop II won't work with 10 half barrels ? No limitations referred to in Murray's outline ?
Using a 3000 litre pump you need ideally to turn over your fish tank water once an hr so that uses up 2000 litres of the pump capacity remember that's 2000 litres not being filtered [to the fish tank and back to the sump] so effectively if all is working correctly that's 1000 litres being filtered so that's 1/2 of what you need
Also 1000 litres feeding 10 grow beds probably wont trigger your syphons
Its all about filtering capacity the more water through you grow beds the better

[wendysul]

Using a 3000 litre pump you need ideally to turn over your fish tank water once an hr so that uses up 2000 litres of the pump capacity remember that's 2000 litres not being filtered [to the fish tank and back to the sump] so effectively if all is working correctly that's 1000 litres being filtered so that's 1/2 of what you need
Also 1000 litres feeding 10 grow beds probably wont trigger your syphons
Its all about filtering capacity the more water through you grow beds the better

OK I understand the logic about only having filtered 1000 litres of the 2000 reqd. Thank you for that. :broc1:

[trout]

Hi Wendysul
Welcome to the forum, ask plenty of questions, that way you can
avoid some of the mistakes we've made.


My pump is on its way - the submersible 3000 from the online store - which will churn out 3080 lph.
Always good to have a spare pump and for your size system
2000 litre (2 x IBC) your pump might be a bit small. So in setting up your system make provision for a multi-pump sump.



I will pick up 2 x 1000L IBC's tomorrow for fish tanks. I have an 1100L spa to use as a sump and 5 x 230L blue barrels to cut in half lengthwise to use as growbeds. .

The number of growbeds you have is really only suitable for one IBC
so as to maintain the 1:1 ratio. ie 5 x 230L = 1150 litres.



Having trawled this forum a little I intend to use the suggestion of a vortex over the FT to oxygenate.

This forum is only just starting to experiment with vortices. So we don't
know how effective they are. I suggest an air pump (min= 50lpm)



1. My blue barrels are the screw on lid type so when I split them the lid will fall off and the only solution I can think of is to silicon the lid on prior to splitting the barrel, and to sit the split barrel in a treated pine frame to hold the lid on - any other suggestions ?

couple of ways to deal with this:
a/ cut the barrels horizontally rather than vertically so that you don't
need to cut the lid.

b/ silicon the lid, then fix with stainless steel screws (five should be enough for each half).

c/ I've not seen the barrels but if the lid is the same diameter as the barrel I would cut the barrel in half (throw away the lid) and join the two half barrels together. You would probably need 9 screws and preferably
a 2 mm steel backing strip.




2. I imagine 19mm black poly is easier to work with to connect everything up & cheaper also. Is there any reason/circumstance not to use it ? Most systems I've looked at seem to use a combo of 19mm black poly & larger white piping - what is the rule of thumb here & why ?


You can use the poly pipe (25mm) but I wouldn't. I used 90mm right to the beds.
I placed inspection holes throughout the system so that I can run the
hose down them for cleaning.
reasons for use:
1/ larger bore can get more water to beds
2/ less likely to become blocked
3/ if blocked easier to clean
4/ more solid hence less likely to accidentally damage it

hope this all helps
Cheers Lou

[wendysul]

Hi Trout - thanks for your invaluable info - can I pls. clarify my logic in working out the ratio of FT to GB ? I used Murray's Rules of Thumb and came up with this

**Grow beds full of media will hold approx 30-40% of media volume in water – so with my grow beds (half 230 litre barrels) – the water capacity would be say 35% x 115 or
40 litres – 10 of these could hold 400 litres so 1200 litre sump is more than adequate to hold the whole volume. – could double the grow beds & still have a large enough sump.

**Determine the total grow bed area in square meters.
From grow bed area, determine the fish weight required (kg) using the ratio rule 5 kg of fish for every square meter of grow bed surface area, assuming the beds are at least 300mm deep. Determine fish tank volume from the stocking density rule above.
For example, if you plan to have 2 x 1 sqm grow beds, total of 2 sqm of growing area. Plan to stock so you have a mature weight of no more than 10kg of fish which will require 500 litre fish tank.….using the above method – grow bed area = 10 x .54 = 5.4sqm…. mature weight of no more than 27kg of fish…. My tanks will have room to add plenty more grow bed area. – If I doubled the grow beds then they could take a max mature weight of 54kg but 2 x 1000 litre tanks could only support 40kg so don’t go overboard.

Didn't see anything in those 'Rules of Thumb' about a 1:1 ratio - did I miss something ?

[trout]

Hi Wendysul

I don't believe I'm going to say this, But I must be from the old school I didn't think I was on this forum that long...

This is a quote from Murray to Byron in a post a few months back


Hi Byron,
Provided you manage the system well , and yes... harvest as soon as they are ready, you will have a wonderful result.
You have been to my place and seen (and eaten) the beautiful Jades.

You have enough grow beds (minimum of 1:1 ratio) More is better. (with magic worms)
If you don't want to have more grow beds or you need some more assurance that all will be well fit a filter of some sort, a swirl filter, or a box filter, or a moving bed filter, or an old sock filter, or at least three of each possible type. (don't forget the trickling filter filled with oyster shells.)

I know you have it all worked out Byron.....

In the old days (couple of months back) the rules of thumb were:

1/ fishtank to growbed ratio 1:1 minimum calculated as volume
( not surface area) as this takes into account GB depth.

2/ fishtank volume to be turned over hourly.

3/ fish density max 100 fish/1000 litre BUT you must start harvesting fish as soon as plate size so that you don't keep all fish
to full size (remember AP is about eating fish as well as vegetables.

These rules were covered in Murray's two DVD's which I still
occasionally watch.
These are just rules of thumb hence not set in concrete, but as a start
you know they will work.

You sump is fine, I think your pump is borderline for the system size
I have a 1500 litre FT and 4500lph pump and it has no spare capacity.
My pump although rated at 4500lph will only pump 3000 lph at a height of 1 metre or won't pump anything to a height of 3 metres, and that's not including any pipe resistance. my next pump will be 6000lph min.
This info is from the pump specs which I think are somewhat ambitious
anyway.

( Now this is my secret rule of thumb (don't tell anyone) ).
Use the water chemistry to tell you how your system is behaving.
Continual ammonia spikes = too many fish or not enough biofilter.
No ammonia spikes = sneak in a few more fish.

I think I've answered all your questions

cheers Lou

[wendysul]

Hi Lou - Thanks for your secret rule of thumb - I see what you mean about the pump size - maybe I will plumb in only 1 IBC to start with and when I've got the hang of things pull in a second, with a second pump. Can you clarify please about 'more is better' - is that FT or GB ?

[trout]

Can you clarify please about 'more is better' - is that FT or GB ?

The more refers to growbeds.

You can run these systems 1:2 or 1:3 (don't know the max)
ie: 1000litre FT : 2000litre growbed or 1000litre FT : 3000litre growbed

My system is 1500 litre FT 3X 600litre GB (tot 1800Litres)

In the new year I'm going to add another 1000litres of growbeds.

ps. Just did some calculations.

I have 3x 600litre GB, they take 20 min to fill/empty
each grow bed holds approx 200 litres of water
so that means I have 1800 liters of water going into my sump
every hour.

So that means my 4500 lph pump is only really pumping 1800lph
May need to start buying decent pumps.


cheers Lou

[fishfood]

Talking pumps i have a 28000 litre an hr pump it runs for 15 min every 2 hrs a total stocking no 100 fish up to 2 kg
5000 litres water 1800 litres growbeds
as you see all systems are different its how you manage them
this has been running like this 3 years no problem

[Wendy in BC]

How do you manage oxygen concentration and solid filtration FF? That's one HUGE FT, how many litres do you cycle during the 15 minutes. My apologies if I sound abrupt, I'm very interested in systems that push the limits, and why and how they do.

[wendysul]

:broc1:Thank you so much guys for all your help - I'll keep working on it but definitely start with only 1 IBC and take it from there once that is running well.
** SO - I have 1000 L of grow beds & 1 IBC - 1000L Ratio 1:1 - but the GB's should hold max 1/3 once the media is in so - should aim to churn the water 3 times thru the GB's per once thru the FT. If my pump achieves 3000lph as spec'd then it should turn over the FT 3 times per hr & the GB's 9 times per hr - of course that doesn't allow for resistance etc. but it seems that I should have some versatility up my sleeve with only 1 IBC on the GB's - I'll keep you posted.:broc1:
PS. rained all day so I've only just managed to get the trailer empty to collect IBC's tomorrow.

[wendysul]

How do you manage oxygen concentration and solid filtration FF? That's one HUGE FT, how many litres do you cycle during the 15 minutes. My apologies if I sound abrupt, I'm very interested in systems that push the limits, and why and how they do.

Hi Wendy - system is still in design phase (not built yet) and I'm on a steep learning curve - have been persuaded today to drop back to 1 IBC for my grow beds - will also use a vortex over the FT to oxygenate water as it is pumped in - solid filtration ? don't know yet - I'll solve that one when I get to it, but hope to have a good work population in the GB's so that should help - I'm actually not a big fish eater but can't bear the thought of the fish being cramped so would prefer to have a larger FT & not stock so heavily.:broc1:

[Wendy in BC]

sorry for the confusion wendysul, my questions were for fishfood (FF). It sounds like you are well on your way to success with the advice you've recieved. Keep posting and keep asking!!

[Yabbies4me]

Hi Wendysul,


If my pump achieves 3000lph as spec'd

I think someone else touched on this back in the thread somewhere, but if your pumps maximum rated capacity is 3000Lph then your actual flow at your GB will be much reduced, dependent upon the head (height you are pumping up) and any restrictions (bends, fittings, horizontal pipe distance etc).

Just as an example, I use a 1200Lph pump in my system, but looking at the manufacturers specs it will only flow a max of 690Lph at 1.2mtr head, about the height most people have their GB. That's before allowing for any restrictions.

Just something worth considering when doing your flow rate sums.

Cheers, Yabbies.
.

[Wendy in BC]

Where are all your dancy guys yabs?

[Yabbies4me]

Got rid of the "Micky Malthouse for PM" quote coz it was confusing a few of the others, they were calling me Micky!... and as Wayne of Wayne's World fame would say:
"I'm not worthy"
.

[fishfood]

How do you manage oxygen concentration and solid filtration FF? That's one HUGE FT, how many litres do you cycle during the 15 minutes. My apologies if I sound abrupt, I'm very interested in systems that push the limits, and why and how they do.
For air i have an electromagnetic pump 130 litres a minute running 10 or 12 airstones they are placed in various spots fish tanks sumps ect[ to keep solids on the move]
i move 2000 litres water each cycle and the grow beds and towers all have thousands of worms working there little buts off keeping every thing clean

[Wendy in BC]

well I never understood the micky quote, inspite of your explanation, but I did like the dancy guys:carrot::broc1::rockette:Whistling

[wendysul]

Hi Wendysul,



I think someone else touched on this back in the thread somewhere, but if your pumps maximum rated capacity is 3000Lph then your actual flow at your GB will be much reduced, dependent upon the head (height you are pumping up) and any restrictions (bends, fittings, horizontal pipe distance etc).

Just as an example, I use a 1200Lph pump in my system, but looking at the manufacturers specs it will only flow a max of 690Lph at 1.2mtr head, about the height most people have their GB. That's before allowing for any restrictions.

Just something worth considering when doing your flow rate sums.

Cheers, Yabbies.
.

Thanks for that Yabby - I realise that the head & restrictions will slow things down but don't understand the maths to figure it out so will 'suck it & see'. :broc1:

[bill newton]

"i never understood the micky quote" -- you'd have to live in an australian state which plays aussie rules football to understand that wendy

we're a wierd mob down under here - six states and a territory - and we hate each other - unless australia is playing england or new zealand - then its us against them!!

but we cant agree on what time of day it is (daylight saving)

or

what guage the railway should be

or

which states beer is the best -(i brew my own!!)drinkanimdrinkanim

carna pies!!!!

[Wendy in BC]

thanks FF I'll give it my full attention tomorrow ................ it's way past my bedtime tonight (11:15pm in BC Canada) goodnight!

[Wendy in BC]

LMAO bill!!

[Yabbies4me]

Thanks for that Yabby - I realise that the head & restrictions will slow things down but don't understand the maths to figure it out so will 'suck it & see'.

Neither do we... you'd need to be a rocket scientist, but the manufacturers normally put a flow v head chart on the side of the box...
but "suck it & see" is the only thing works in the real world.
.

[Wendy in BC]

Thanks FF,

I see your stocking density is very low, which I presume will allow you lots of forgiveness in terms of filtration as well as ensure good oxygenation. Thanks for the tip on air stones, I have them all together, so I have pooling of solids that has been a pain ...... I "rake" them forward to the pump and freak out the fish a few times a day.

[fishfood]

Thanks FF,

I see your stocking density is very low, which I presume will allow you lots of forgiveness in terms of filtration as well as ensure good oxygenation. Thanks for the tip on air stones, I have them all together, so I have pooling of solids that has been a pain ...... I "rake" them forward to the pump and freak out the fish a few times a day.

With my system i only grow what we like to eat
fish we had twice as many last year gave most away

[Wendy in BC]

Sounds like you've got a really productive system FF. Do you have pictures??

[fishfood]

Sounds like you've got a really productive system FF. Do you have pictures??
Yes go to established systems fish foods system and if you have time go over to backyard aquaponics and members systems food and fish system theres 130 pages but it tells the whole story crashes fishkills everything

[wendysul]

Yes go to established systems fish foods system and if you have time go over to backyard aquaponics and members systems food and fish system theres 130 pages but it tells the whole story crashes fishkills everything

Hi FF - Just read your story under 'established systems' & loved it - esp the bit about the 'a over t' while cleaning tanks - almost as good as my effort of buying a pr of Toulouse geese recently, only to find that the gander prefers the property two farms over that has a dam. (I don't have one yet) He lives there now & his mate lives with me still. Totally uncatchable & I can only hope that his hormones will drive him back in due course - at which point I'll clip his wings ! :broc1:

[wendysul]

Does anybody know anything about sullage treatment ?

We are on a hilly 5 acres & converting a garage at the top of a hill into a 1 bedroom unit for our son & his wife (marrying in April). The unit already has a septic tank for loo but the current sullage is just a slotted pipe going out to the paddock ? which backs up if I run too much water through it i.e. it won't cope with 2 people living there.

I'm thinking of running it down the hill into a bog (gravel bed with baffles) - open to the air & planted with irises & draining into a sump which will overflow into a wicking bed - any thoughts anyone ?:broc1: