Need suggestions for my new AP system [Archive] - Practical Aquaponics Discussion Forum. A place to discuss every aspect of Aquaponics.

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 16:35

Hi!
I am currently building my AP system and have a few questions....

First what I have:
1 IBC Fish tank 1000L
6 Half IBC's for grow beds
1 IBC cut to about 500L for sump

I will be gravity feeding water to the beds, Bell siphon to the sump
Sump will be pumped back to the fish tank to drain slowly to the beds

sump will have a float to turn on/off the pump and there is a filter in between the sump and the pump.

Questions are:
I plan to line the beds all up along one wall of my greenhouse. Will the long runs to the sump create a problem?

What size pipes should I use for the drain and gravity feed of water?
6 beds equals about 6 meters long. I would like to put the sump by the fish tank and not under the beds. (sump will be in the ground)

Can I use one large central drain pipe that each bed drains into?
I'd rather not have 6 pipes running to the sump if I can help it.

I am new to bell siphons so still trying to figure those out.

and lastly.....
has anyone used the landscaping lava rock? it does not float like pumice but has many holes so should hold water and oxygen well.....

Thank you for any help! I will start posting photos when I get time to start building!

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 18:39

I do have a couple more IBC's and might add a second fish tank.

Fishdood

19th April 2012, 18:53

Hey Rainwolf and welcolme.

I've just set up a long run back to an in ground sump from five GB's using 90mm pipe.
Each GB syphons into it then back to the sump.

The gravity feed will need to at least be 50mm with smaller taps to each GB.
You may also need an overflow....what does not go to the GB's returns to the sump.

The lava rock I think is the same as expanded clay balls in which yes they are perfect.

Lastly and most importantly your sump and pump.

You will need at least 100 litrs per GB capacity in your sump plus water to cover the pump.

Also if you turn your pump off the GBs cannot fill thus will not syphon thus will not return water to the sump.......

You get the picture.

Hope all goes well.

Paul

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 19:20

Thank you Fishdood!

I will check my sump again and see how much it holds total..... I figured 500L just as a round figure since I had a broken IBC bucket that I cut the broken part off. Lucky for me, the broken part was the top corner so I just chopped the top off.

I was thinking of having a slow drain from the fish tank..... that way my pump would only run when the sump was full.... but if 100L per GB then I will need to add a second IBC fish tank to the system.

I got a large super pump from a surplus sale. it has a pump head of 12 meters or so and something insane around 500L per minute of volume power. It is not a submersible but inline with the piping.

Yes I did say and mean per minute!

So I figured a float on/off trigger with the pump, pulling sump water through a filter and dumping back to the fish tank all in about a minute every hour or so.

Hey I got it dirt cheap might as well use it :D

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 19:30

any chance of being able to use 25mm piping for the gravity flow from the fish tank?
What problems would i run against?

(I already have a ton of 25mm tubing and I always try to use what i have handy rather then buy new.)

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 19:59

My pump is something like this....
http://www.allstates.com/coolant%20recycler%20kleer-flo%20Af250%20motor%20pump.JPG

I will check the specs again and post but might take a couple days to get out to the greenhouse.... got to work so can't play with my AP project :/

Fishdood

19th April 2012, 20:10

Rainwolf

19th April 2012, 21:08

OK so you fill the FT to the brim then it drains down to how many litres....how deep.... does it have a solids lift??

Now remebering that you will want to flood the GBs about every 15 - 20 mins.......
1000 litr IBC less 600 litres to fill GBs and the pump will turn on only after the GBs drain....

You could use 25mm pipe to your GBs as a trickle type feed but would be best from a header tank.

Yes fill FT to brim and slow drain, I figured to have the water pulled from the bottom to help move the solids and water.... But I'm not sure what a solids lift is....

I will add in the second IBC and plumb them together, so then I will have 2000L to work with. If the GB's take 100L each then I will set gravity drain at the 650L mark (in each tank) or there abouts. This would leave me with 1300L for fish and 700L for the GB's and sump. I still need to double check how much my sump will hold.

I am not sure what a header tank is, sorry I am not up on AP terminology, I'm new to the AP online world.... But I am learning!

I've worked with continuous flow float beds with tilapia as the fish but this will be my first GB with media. I have to say the float beds were easy compared to this :D but I really want to grow things that do not do well in a float raft, plus I want some fruit trees in the system if possible.

Fishdood

19th April 2012, 21:30

The idea of a sump generaly is to give the abillity to have a constant height in your fish tank. Essentially your using your fish tank as a header tank. A body of water at a raised height to take advatage of gravity fall.

The difficulty I see that you face is having the measured amount to transfer from sump to FT to GBs all must be the same amount......no variable.

I have no experience with timed systems.....I know they work but I'm not sure they way your describing.

I think there is an easier way to pluck this chicken.

RupertofOZ

19th April 2012, 21:41

I wouldn't use anything less than 50mm (2") for an SLO.... and considering you're going to be filling 6 beds... I think you'll need to go to 90/100mm....

You can always step down to 25mm to deliver to the beds themselves... most do...

In order to supply the SLO... you'll need a pump that can deliver the flow back from the sump fast enough....

SLO systems are usually pumped continuously... thus maintaining a constant height in the fish tank... a timed pump from the sump to the fish tank, and gravity feed to the beds might work....

But there will obviously be periods where the fish tank will not be oxygenated by water return (from sump).... possibly 45 minutes...therefore you'll almost certainly need additional aeration...

Fishdood

19th April 2012, 21:50

John the thing is he is looking at filling the FT, letting it drain a measure quantity of water to the GBs, drain to the sump, then the pump restarts to deliver the same measured quantity back to the FT.

Somewhere the math will fail.

I think if the FT is kept constant height, while pump turns on for set length of time, filling GBs (via FT) while overflow returns from FT to sump. GBs tricle drain.
I would be looking this way. IMO

Paul

RupertofOZ

19th April 2012, 22:00

John the thing is he is looking at filling the FT, letting it drain a measure quantity of water to the GBs, drain to the sump, then the pump restarts to deliver the same measured quantity back to the FT.

So leaving a possible depleted de-oxygenated, or un-oxygenate fish tank ... for periods of time... to heat/cool with seasonal weather...

I can't see a single reason for doing as suggested... but multiple possible points of failure....

I think if the FT is kept constant height, while pump turns on for set length of time, filling GBs (via FT) while overflow returns from FT to sump. GBs tricle drain.
I would be looking this way. IMO

Why bother.... either go a timed system... with float activated sump return...

Or a continually pumps, constant height CHOP/SLO system... and be done with it...

I don't understand any possible benefits of doing it this way... what are you trying to acheive???

Fishdood

19th April 2012, 23:16

John that's what I'm saying. A timed system would be fine but given the description, the way I understand it it wont work.

RupertofOZ

20th April 2012, 00:36

I agree... timed systems usually pump to the grow beds and gravity return to the tank...

My concern would be, especially with a small SLO... whether a timed system in the configuration above... would deliver enough flow to the grow beds within a time period...

Both for nitrification.. and oxygenation...

The system preference seems to be basically for a standard CHOP configuration.... continuously pumped.... which would work...

Or even a constant flood system...

That's why I'm curious as to why the timer is an option... becuase I also think that it wouldn't really work... or more particularly... just wouldn't acheive anything of benefit...

Rainwolf

20th April 2012, 09:47

sorry I must have left this out of what I currently have.....
I will be using a small bubbler in the fish tank.
So they will not run out of oxygen.

I am trying to use what I have (to reuse and reduce cost)
And trying to figure out the best way to use what I have.

What I want is 1 long bed run on 1 side of the greenhouse. I would like to run everything on my solar panel system so need to have as little power use as possible. I have 2 large truck batteries and a inverter so can use standard plugs but running something 24/7 would not be a wise thing due to it might run batteries out in the night before solar can charge again....

What I have:
2 IBC fish tanks (2 based on what was discussed earlier)
3 IBC's cut in half to create 6 grow beds
1 insane super pump
a lot of 25mm pipes
some odd pvc bits and connectors
a aquarium bubbler (might be 2)
a couple extra IBC's
a few odd beds for float rafts
4 plastic food grade barrels

I know I will have to buy some large diameter pipes and some ball valves.

So I'm looking for the best way to use what I have in this setup....

Thank you for all your help/suggestions!

Murray

20th April 2012, 13:22

Given your description I would still adopt a standard CHOP approach and using a timer to off the pump during the night for the most part. Only run it for a couple of cycles if you have a timer that is that smart, to save your battery power.

An absolute must to have the bubblers in the FT if water circulation is to be stopped for long periods of time such as overnight .

Only trouble I have found when not running my system during the night, is that gradually the water quality drops due to no filtration going on over the night periods. This water quality issue can quickly become a problem if running fish species such as trout or barramundi.

Rainwolf

20th April 2012, 14:21

Thanks Murray,

I still have to see what the super pump will drain from the batteries but I am hoping that by pumping once every hr or so it will be able to continue during the night.

I live inn a temperate zone so have to watch for cold as well as adjust for cloudy days so some days will have to be on grid power if we don't get sun in a few days but if I can minimize it as much as possible I should be able to do solar power 70-80% of the time.

I watched your DVD's as saw a switch you have with a bilge pump for 12volt in case power went out.... I looked in your shop for information on it but did not find anything... can you please tell me what that is? also can it be set to the other way? meaning can I set it to my solar but if my batteries run out will it switch to grid power? (just thought of this! would be a great tool for those who are trying to be off grid but want stable backup :D )

what kind of timer would you guys recommend?

I will be growing Blue Tilapia in the tank plus red claws in the sump if I can get them here. (Yes i am in the USA so can have Tilapia)

I based my "design" on the chop type system then modified due to what I have and space... I've got everything in my greenhouse now, just need to figure out where everything will go... (I only want to dig the hole for the sump once! :D )

Thanks!

davidl

20th April 2012, 15:22

Rainwolf
It sounds to me like you are about to make the same layout mistakes I made in my main system. Since only a complete redesign will fix my problem I have never fixed it.

Problems I forsee are

If the sump is not big enough to hold all the water that will flow in to it when the pump is off during a power outage or pump failure, you will lose a LOT of water. Mine can lose up to 50% of its water like this
A very powerful pump going to the fish tank can be too much flow for an overflow pipe placed near the top of the tank. The 50mm outlet pipe near the top of my tank is too close to the top of the tank to build up enough head to force the water out as fast as the pump puts it in. And my pump is only 110 L/min. So again I can lose up to 50% of my water like this.
Having the float switch in the sump as the main on-off device for the pump leads to having to have a precise amount of water in your system or pumping will stop. I did solve this problem with a slow trickle in to the sump but the solution means that anything else that goes wrong will result in me losing 50% of my water.

Given the flow rate and max head of the pump you describe it sounds like a real high power pump which draws a lot of electricity. I don't know how much solar power you have but usually people don't have a lot. The only way to reduce power consumption for a pump like that is to have it turned off when not needed.

All that being said I think there are just a few points to remember in your layout design to avoid all the problems.
- Have a big enough sump tank to hold all the water during a pump failure, and also big enough for the fish tank and all grow beds to be at max and still have water left in the sump

You have 3 options for preventing the fish tank from overflowing
- float switch in the fish tank OR
- have a tank above the fish tank that the pump sends water to instead of the fish tank, this is called a head tank. Then water is distributed from this head tank to everything else. Have a float switch in that tank.
- or put at least 2 overflow pipes in the fish tank at 2 different heights. The low one goes to the grow beds, and the higher one(s) goes to the sump. The high ones are all at the same height. The ones at the top need to provide enough flow rate back to the sump so the powerful pump does not pump water out of the system.

A timer based system needs to have a small slow flow water outlet at or near the bottom of the grow bed to drain all the water out while the pump is off. Grow beds also need to have a large high flow outlet near the top. You can combine an auto siphon type with a timer by drilling a small hole near the bottom of the upstand pipe in the siphon to allow a slow flow of water out even when the siphon is not running. The high flow outlet near the top is the top of the stand pipe, however in a combined auto siphon/timer system, the grow bed will drain once filled instead of remain full for the rest of the timer's on period.

With a powerful pump I'd recommend using a head tank with a float switch in it controlling the pump as well as a timer, and a combined auto siphon and timer based approach on the grow beds. This way your grow beds can cycle 1-4 times an hour with the pump being turned on for only a few minutes per hour.

With the backup switch Murray has I doubt it can be made to work how you want as the backup relays will not be built for mains power going through them and will likely short out. Also the device is built to operate a separate pump as backup, not provide backup power to a single device. If your inverter has a low battery light or alarm you may be able to wire that up to a relay to turn on a battery charger. Though you'll likely need an in between relay as the circuit driving the light will be too low power to turn on a mains power relay.

I think that's enough of my dribble for now. Other people can have a go.

davidl

20th April 2012, 15:28

nope 1 more thing to say.
A timer provides a simple straightforward method of using less power at night. Which for a solar system is very important as providing power at night is the most expensive time to do so.

Rainwolf

21st April 2012, 19:08

This is what I was thinking of doing.....
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/aquaexample1.jpg
Pump is timed to flush sump into fish tank with a auto shut off float to prevent going dry.
Small Air bubbler is running all the time in fish tank
Sump will be big enough to hold all the water in the beds in case of failure
Run as much off of solar as possible but testing still needs to be done on super pump.
Lava rock as bed media
Possible 200L Header tank (barrel)

Am I missing anything major? You guys have been great and I have been adjusting the plans based on your suggestions and information. Please keep letting me know if I'm missing something or possible problems.

I might have to buy a smaller pump and have continuous flow to the fish tank but I really want to try the timed first since I have all that stuff already from a surplus find (pumps, filters and a bunch of fish stuff from a research lab for $10!). Plus I really don't want to spend more money if I can help it. :D

RupertofOZ

21st April 2012, 19:36

If you want to use a timer... and have two pumps... then just use a float on each....

A low level cut off in the fish tank... (so you can't drain the tank below a certain level.... pumping to the beds....

And a high level switch on/low level cut off float activation in the sump.... use the biggest pump in the sump to deliver the water back to the fish tank as quickly as possible....

Standard, simple... virtually foolproof configuration..... and one I use in nearly all my client systems...

Fishdood

21st April 2012, 21:24

Nice drawing Rainwolf. Simple design, stick with it.

To run a timed system you wont need to have a varying height in your fish tank.

Run the pump long enough to fill the GBs. With the size pump you have you will be pumping more water into the FT than can go to GBs fast enough through even a 50mm pipe so to prevent the FT from overflowing have a return pipe (overflow) back to the sump.

So long as the sump is large enough thats all you need.

If your pump can handle small solids then you do not need a filter.

The overflow is best to have a solids lift also.

I may be corrected here but do away with the syphon idea and just leave the stand pipe and drill a small hole at the base the let the water drain to the sump slowly.

Check your timing so you know how often to turn the pump on and how large a hole to drill in the stand pipe to determine how fast the GBs drain.

Paul

RupertofOZ

22nd April 2012, 01:07

With the size pump you have you will be pumping more water into the FT than can go to GBs fast enough through even a 50mm pipe so to prevent the FT from overflowing have a return pipe (overflow) back to the sump....

The overflow is best to have a solids lift also.

It would certainly need a solids lifting overflow (SLO).... but the problem I have with the current design though.... is that I don't think 50mm will cope with the inflow... and will probably barely supply the 4 grow beds...

If you going a CHOP design, with SLO... then I think you need to go to 90mm... and step down to 25 at the beds if required....

Rainwolf

22nd April 2012, 04:21

A low level cut off in the fish tank... (so you can't drain the tank below a certain level.... pumping to the beds....

Since it is gravity fed water from the FT I will be placing the out pipe at a level that would leave the fish plenty of water I don't think I will need a second pump. Gravity can not pull the water from under the pipe out take.... can it??? am I missing something here???

The pipe from the FT to the GB will be pulling water from the bottom... is that what you guys mean by solids lift?

I will add a overflow pipe from FT to the sump. That is a excellent idea thanks!

Slow drain vs bell siphon.....
If the water is slow in to the GB I need a bell correct?
The water should not be powering out to the GB's since I will have a valve on the out to regulate the gravity flow to the GB's. I want it to drain from the FT slowly if possible. Then drain from the GB's fast.

If I did a slow drain into the GB's and a slow drain out it would just be a continuous flow and not a flood drain.... (again am I missing something here? this is new to me with the GB's)

Thanks!

davidl

22nd April 2012, 16:03

Since it is gravity fed water from the FT I will be placing the out pipe at a level that would leave the fish plenty of water I don't think I will need a second pump. Gravity can not pull the water from under the pipe out take.... can it??? am I missing something here???

I'm not sure what Rupert was going on about with a low level cutoff float in the fish tank. What I was meaning when saying a float switch in the fish tank was to maintain the FT water level in a set range by turning the pump on and off with the FT float switch.

If there is an air break in the pipe at the top of the overflow pipe, no, it can not drain the fish tank, no matter what the pump is doing in the sump.

The pipe from the FT to the GB will be pulling water from the bottom... is that what you guys mean by solids lift?

Yes, a solids lift overflow picks up water from the bottom of the tank where the fish waste solids are. The exact how of this does not matter, as long as it does.

I will add a overflow pipe from FT to the sump. That is a excellent idea thanks!

If you will not be using a float switch in the fish tank to turn the pump off when the fish tank is full, make sure this pipe can handle the flow required.

Slow drain vs bell siphon.....
If the water is slow in to the GB I need a bell correct?

Maybe, but only indirectly. If the flow in to the grow bed is "slow" then some methods of achieving flood and drain may not work. A bell siphon system can handle a very fast flow rate if made for it.

The water should not be powering out to the GB's since I will have a valve on the out to regulate the gravity flow to the GB's. I want it to drain from the FT slowly if possible. Then drain from the GB's fast.

If I did a slow drain into the GB's and a slow drain out it would just be a continuous flow and not a flood drain.... (again am I missing something here? this is new to me with the GB's)

The flow rate going in and out of the grow bed depends on how you want to do flood and drain. When using a bell siphon the water drains out VERY fast, much faster than it took to fill up.

When using the timer method alone, like my simple small system (http://www.aquaponics.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=4010), the grow bed has 2 speeds of flow rate. These 2 speeds are achieved by having a small hole near the bottom and a large one near the top. When using a stand pipe for this, a small hole is drilled near the base of the stand pipe, and the large opening at the top of the stand pipe is used as the large outlet.

The purpose of having the 2 holes is because you want a slower flow of water out of the grow bed than the water is going in, or it will not fill up. The top, high flow outlet ensures the grow bed does not overflow while the pump is still on. Once the timer turns the pump off, all the water drains back out via the small hole at the bottom. The pump needs to be off long enough for this to happen. Seeing as the words "small" and "large" are not dimensions a "small" hole may be any size, but the water inflow rate and "small" hole size need to be correct to achieve the appropriate fill and drain times.

You can combine a bell siphon with a timer by using a normal bell siphon and drilling a small hole in the stand pipe. This gives you the flexibility of a high flow rate and fast cycle time a bell siphon offers while allowing you to use the infrequent cycles of a timer based system. Also it makes the problem of matching inflow rate with the "small" hole size less of an issue, as the grow bed will flood and drain while the pump is on, and drain while the pump is off.

RupertofOZ

22nd April 2012, 16:49

I'm not sure what Rupert was going on about with a low level cutoff float in the fish tank. What I was meaning when saying a float switch in the fish tank was to maintain the FT water level in a set range by turning the pump on and off with the FT float switch.

Same thing David... but with a timer... the pump on is activated/over-ridden by the timer... rather than the float...

The low float... is just to prevent the tank from draining down if water is lost for some reason...

The flow rate going in and out of the grow bed depends on how you want to do flood and drain.
Well yes to the latter... but the inflow is dependant on the amount of water delivered, by pump or SLO....or controlled by ball valve into the bed

My concern remains that a 50mm SLO will probably not deliver enough flow to trigger a siphon... or all the siphons in 4 grow beds...

And really... if the system is timer based... then I just don't see the need, or any reason for a siphon... especially if you're going to drill holes in the bottom of the standpipe.. (which I would do if you use a timer)...

If the primary purpose/methodology... is to use a timer.... then I'm just not sure why there's a need to mix so many configurations...

Just run it as an overflow standpipe.. ala any other timer operation...

But if your delivery from the fish tank is not pumped... then IMO... you need a 90mm SLO...

Rainwolf

22nd April 2012, 18:22

If there is an air break in the pipe at the top of the overflow pipe, no, it can not drain the fish tank, no matter what the pump is doing in the sump.

Yes the one I've seen has a T pipe connector or a elbow with a hole drilled on the top to allow air flow to break any suction but I was worried I had not thought of something or did not know of something that would create a suction to drain FT.. :)

Yes, a solids lift overflow picks up water from the bottom of the tank where the fish waste solids are. The exact how of this does not matter, as long as it does.

Thank you, I planned on having both the FT out flow and the sump out flow as solids lift piping. The FT to get solids to the GB's and the sump to get any remaining solids to the filter just before the pump.

If you will not be using a float switch in the fish tank to turn the pump off when the fish tank is full, make sure this pipe can handle the flow required.

Will do! I will make sure the over flow from the FT to sump is bigger then the inflow to the FT from the sump.

I think a couple things might be getting mixed up or I just don't know the terminology....

I want to use a float on/off in the sump, so when the sump has 500L in it the pump turns on, when the sump has 100L the pump turns off. This would in effect make the flow from the FT to the beds continuous flow not timed.

I would not called it a "timed" system like a friend of mine is doing. His turns on every 20mins or so and fast floods then drains via stand pipe with the holes for slow drain. His pumps at set time intervals, I would like mine to just pump when the sump is getting full. (this way I could increase the sump size and fish tank size and minimize the pump on time to reduce power used from my solar system.)

I will be using 2 IBC's that are connected to create 1 2000L "tank" this way the water levels will only go up/down about 30-40cm at most. I will be making sure that the water that comes out of the FT's equals to 1 full sump so if the pump fails, like you mentioned before, I will not lose water.

But again I am new to this type of system... :D

Oh and I will most likely use a small drain hole in the bottom of the stand pipe in the Bell siphon, in case of pump failure. (hope to test the pump on monday/tuesday.... for power consumption and how fast it can drain 1 IBC in to another.)

davidl

22nd April 2012, 23:04

I want to use a float on/off in the sump, so when the sump has 500L in it the pump turns on, when the sump has 100L the pump turns off. This would in effect make the flow from the FT to the beds continuous flow not timed.
...
I would like mine to just pump when the sump is getting full. (this way I could increase the sump size and fish tank size and minimize the pump on time to reduce power used from my solar system.)

I will be using 2 IBC's that are connected to create 1 2000L "tank" this way the water levels will only go up/down about 30-40cm at most. I will be making sure that the water that comes out of the FT's equals to 1 full sump so if the pump fails, like you mentioned before, I will not lose water.

Rainwolf, my main system uses the float in sump method, and it is a real balancing act. Even with a bigger sump, this method leads to the sump not filling up enough to turn the pump on, or leads to a state where the pump is on 24/7 anyway. I can foresee the system you are describing getting stuck with the pump on 24/7. The steps I see happening once built are
- fill fish tank to the level of the GB pipe and fill the sump tank with water
- turn pump on
- water flows in to grow bed pipe as expected, and grow beds start to operate.
- the pump is still on and fills up to the FT to sump overflow level and just flows back to the sump.
- if the volume of water going in to the grow beds is not enough to take the level below the float switch cut off level, the pump won't turn off.

As Fishdood was saying the volume of water going to the grow beds has to lower the water level in the sump tank too precisely, and something will stuff up somewhere.

Perhaps put a pair of IBC tanks above the FT as a head tank, so it matches the volume of the sump tank, and water can flow out of this head tank to the FT then on to the GBs then back down to the sump. This way the pump can turn on and pump the sump tanks full volume up to the head tanks and turn the pump off. This way the float switch can be in the sump tank, and there will be no danger of overflow, or the pump running 24/7 or the pump getting stuck in an off state.

After all this discussion I've just realised we don't know the capacity of this "super pump". It may not be as much as we are thinking. A standard CHOP setup may be what is needed. I have a 220Watt pump which can do 6000L per hour at 1m head (6600LPH at 0m head), plus mine is set up in a stupid way, and I get by... until the power goes out.
Here's it's specs http://www.leaderpumps.com.au/water-re-use/grey-water/submersible-drainage-pump-2 note I picked mine up for cheaper than that. Plus there's a guy doing a swimming pool conversion on this forum that is using his 750Watt pool pump, now that is some serious pumping.

@Rupert
If you plug your pump in to a float switch, which is plugged in to a timer that is plugged in to the wall outlet, the pump will only ever be on when both float switch and timer is in an ON state. One does not override the other. (Walks in Storms will appreciate that it is a logical AND operator, not an OR operator). Note do not plug the float switch in to the wall before the timer or you will have very weird result of time only passing on the timer while the float switch is on.
Also when the pump is off the water level in the fish tank will only drain down to the overflow pipe level, and no lower, as long as there is that air break at the top of the overflow pipe (aka the T piece).
Yes the inflow rate is dependant on the pump/SLO/ball valve, but these are chosen/set to achieve the grow bed operation you want. Though I suppose you could build your grow bed around the flow rate that you happened to have instead of the other way around. It is all very circular logic.

RupertofOZ

23rd April 2012, 01:21

@Rupert
If you plug your pump in to a float switch, which is plugged in to a timer that is plugged in to the wall outlet, the pump will only ever be on when both float switch and timer is in an ON state. One does not override the other.

Sorry I should have been clearer... the pump is plugged into the timer... not the float... the float is just free floating therefore always on....(over-ridden by the timer).... unless the float level low is initiated...

I'm talking a float... that switches directly to the pump... not a seperate "float switch"...

Also when the pump is off the water level in the fish tank will only drain down to the overflow pipe level, and no lower, as long as there is that air break at the top of the overflow pipe (aka the T piece).

Very true... but in my example I was suggesting a (timed) pump in the fish tank to supply the grow beds.. rather than an SLO...

Yes the inflow rate is dependant on the pump/SLO/ball valve, but these are chosen/set to achieve the grow bed operation you want. Though I suppose you could build your grow bed around the flow rate that you happened to have instead of the other way around. It is all very circular logic.
What I'm actually suggesting.. is simply that I have my doubts that a 50mm SLO... will/can supply 4 grow beds...

And suggesting that 90mm would be more appropriate...

As an example, I used a 50mm external SLO from the bottom drain of an IBC.... and it simply cannot supply more than 2 grow beds....

You just can't get the flow through it.... and I'm running constant flood, and had to throttle the pump so as not to overwealm the SLO...

Walks-In-Storms

23rd April 2012, 03:53

I'll have to go back into this "thread" far enough to understand more thoroughly (I think I've read from the beginning, but with all the things I'm doing from new wind-turbine alternator to aquaponics system, to self-watering and wicking pail gardens, to arranging a new chemistry set for monitoring of my aquaponics garden, I get pretty "splattered" mentally sometimes), but my experience with timers - beginning sixty years ago with turkey farm waterers and feeder and continuing to artillery and rocket projectiles - has been less than assuring. It always seem to come out something like betting the farm.

If it were me (as it is right now), I would avoid every level of complexity about stone age as much as possible. I will soon, I hope aerate my fish tank with wind power, then with wind and solar power - wind primary, solar back-up (the times that both will be unavailable are almost never). Only absolute necessity - no alternative, i.e. - would I use anything requiring an electricity-dependent timer. I can't, in short, see any reason to use anything significantly different from the CHOP system I will use or one like it (Murray's). If the power grid electricity supplying my one pump fails, it will be supplanted by my batteries, and that only if the turbine isn't producing enough.

I, of course, know little or nothing - certainly not enough to be critical - of your circumstances, including local power supply - but depending on power companies for anything but luxury is for me like playing Russian Roulette with bullets in two of six cylinders.

Just my view, Rainwolf, but I'll go back and read everything, then see if I can't be more help. Meanwhile (no offense to RupertofOZ who has already been a big help to me), I tend to agree with DavidL here. I might add that you seem pretty knowledgeable, too, such that I have no doubt that whatever conclucion you come to will be a good one.

Walks-In-Storms

24th April 2012, 00:50

I just noticed that should have said, "above that of the Stone Age," rather than "about stone age." Rats!!!

Walks-In-Storms

24th April 2012, 10:27

Oh, and by the way (in hopes that it will be of help to someone with their own aquaponics system), I placed the grow beds and sump in my own CHOP design as I did for several reasons: First, that is the shaded end of the fish tank and system, the last place the Texas sun gets to during the day. Second, I have the option of digging the sump down as far as I want (and I've already decided to drill four eight foot (two and a half meters) lengths of six inch (152 millimeters) "PVC" into the ground vertically. The four pipes will be linked at their bottoms with the sump pump in the pipe closest the fish tank - about eight inches (203 millimeters) distant. The single pump will be the same distance below ground level as before, however.

This arrangement, I think, will maximize - using the geo-thermal theory as I did with pipe I buried at the other end of the fish tank last summer - cooling (we're expecting new records for summer temperatures).

The first diagram, by the way, is my latest desigh (I've started work), and the second my earlier plan.

Hope the my ideas are of service to someone!

Rainwolf

24th April 2012, 13:35

ok so here are some photos....

1) super pump
2) info on super pump
3) filter
4) control box
5) beds on side of greenhouse
6) fish tank
7) sump and one of the float raft beds
8) UV filters (don't know if I will use these yet or not)

beds and everything are just placed to see how they fit in the greenhouse
I will set up the beds on level concrete blocks and have the sump in the ground under the first 2 beds.... Hope this helps people figure out a little what I have. :)

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/55685427.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/10b53592.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/fedee6ca.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/bb5b5c76.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/7e96251e.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/a5f05022.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/c9b6cb6a.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/11553467.jpg

davidl

24th April 2012, 14:29

So it is a pretty powerful pump, 380Watt with max flow 8085.6 LPH, max head 11.9m.

Is your float switch permanently attached to the pump?
If it is not, put the float switch in the fish tank, and run a standard CHOP 1 system with the float switch turning the pump on and off as needed. This way you will minimise power usage, and run no risk of having any water losses due to overflowing, plus it will be a layout everyone is familiar with.

If the float switch cable will not reach far enough to have the pump in the sump and the float switch in the fish tank, then you'll need to think about how to prevent the pump from overflowing the thing it is pumping to.

Rainwolf

24th April 2012, 14:34

So I was talking to my friend about the pump and we figured maybe a straight timed pump system would be best.... no float on/off etc

pump goes for 5 mins or 10 mins per hr or so. depending on how long it takes to drain FT water to the beds.

major over flow pipe from FT to sump to circle the water to help with oxygen as well as just cycle the water a bit. (again there will be a air pump in the ft at all times to provide oxygen etc)

what do you guys think?

Rainwolf

24th April 2012, 14:40

Jumpstart

24th April 2012, 14:59

Rainwolf

24th April 2012, 15:24

I think there are more power efficient pumps you could be looking at but it depends if power is a concern I use a jebao eco pump simular to this but the 6000lph pump

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jebao-Eco-Tech-Pond-Pump-EMP-10000L-H-100W-Only-Save-up-50-Running-Cost-/390346053119?pt=AU_Decor_Furnishing&hash=item5ae27015ff

yes there is, but I got a ton of stuff from a lab surplus for dirt cheap so trying to use what I have rather then buy.

I may have to buy a pump if this one tests out of range of my solar system but want to try first.... plus I'm kind of well.... lacking in money :D

Terra

26th April 2012, 23:54

Seems most of the problems stem from your super pump , get an energy efficient one more suited and sell that one and run your system a simple chop 1 . You say your short on money we can all relate to that but if you have to get timers and float switches ect ect these all will cost and complicate with more failure points to worry about
regards Terra

RupertofOZ

27th April 2012, 00:55

Yabbies4me

27th April 2012, 01:08

I don't think the excess flow will be the biggest concern Rupe... more likely the power bill... 380w!!! :eek:

Belgian

27th April 2012, 01:21

Hello,

I am having trouble making sure I have the correct pump size
For 4 IBC grow beds, One round fish tank 1135 litres and a sump tank which I am not sure of the size yet ? 500 litres or bigger?
Is their overkill in buying a pump? I would think there is, what would you all suggest to have enough flow and not have to run out and switch pumps after a month?
Also please what brand names have proven themselves to you ?

This is for a CHOP 2 set-up with 4 beds versus the 3 beds shown on Video
Thank you very much
Belgian

Rainwolf

27th April 2012, 10:50

If the pump is too powerful... too much flow....

Then just "tee" off from the pump outlet... and divert some of the flow (use a ball valve)... back to the fish tank... through a spray bar...

This will provide extra oxygenation... and the "teed" line can always be diverted to extra grow beds when you expand...

This is what I plan to do with the extra water for now.
I have a greenhouse of 3.2meters wide and 7.6 meters long (10 feet x 25 feet)
Peak is at 13.5 feet / 4.1 meters high

I will be running the 5-6 GB's now to cycle and get everything running and etc... then adding in some barrels and buckets and vertical grow space later.
So the more pump power the better but again I will be trying to run solar if I can. Might have to go see if I can find some batteries that hold more power such as large marine or tractor types. So far I've been able to run most of the greenhouse stuff off of 2 truck batteries.

Yabbies - 380w power is not bad if you can run it for 10 mins 6 times a day..... :D

Terra - yes a lot of this is figuring out the best way to use what I have in the pump etc.... A lot of the stuff I have I got for very very low cost at a surplus... so far I have only spent money on the pipe connections... still have to buy some large pipes if I can not find them somewhere soon.

Part of what I do with all my projects is I salvage things to be reused else where. I have a greenhouse made of a old portable carport frame, a shed made from another carport frame and scrap/salvaged wood, chicken coops from salvaged wood shipping crates, built my own solar panels by purchasing just the cells and wiring, setup said solar panel system with salvaged car batteries etc, rainwater collection system from salvaged food grade barrels from a food processing plant near here, etc etc you get the idea :D

I like trying to figure out how to use what I have (or can get for free) to make things work. I know its crazy sometimes...

I could go buy a pump and make a standard CHOP system but that would be buying as well as following a set "standard" and well... I'm not standard :D

I live in the city and have chickens, goats, dogs, garden, fruit trees, I preserve and store food from my garden, I have places inside the city limits where I can pick fresh organic fruits (free) for making preserves, I get wild mushrooms and smoke my own fish/meats, dehydrated fruits/jerky/veggies.... etc...

I try to teach anyone (neighbors friend etc) who wants to know how to do all this within a large expensive city at very very little cost. We have figured that even with paying for the house/land/taxes/standard bills required I live on about 1/4 to 1/6th what a average person does here in Seattle.

Oh and I don't drive... at all... so this is all done with public transport or walking :D Ya I know I'm certifiable :)

but my neighborhood loves when I give out eggs and veggies from my yard so they all tolerate me with a smile :D

Rainwolf

27th April 2012, 13:51

I now have 1 fish tank almost full of rainwater and it is now cycling through my float bed on top of the FT. I have a couple of baskets of pea gravel in there and one of our Marsh Merigold plants. I am cycling the water from the FT to the float bed and back to filter and hoping to start the colony in the baskets of pea gravel.

Tested water the last couple days will test again later tonight..

Date pH Ammonia Nirate Nirite
04/24/12 6.6 0.5 0 2.5
04/25/12 6.6 0.5 0 2.5

I got a little tiny fountain pump for $10 to use to cycle the FT water through the filter.... It is not strong enough to cycle all the GB's but it would be a low wattage alternative to a bubbler and will cycle water through the float bed to fish tank 24/7.... (it pumps 250 gallons 946 liters per hr and 16w)

Would be great for a single GB setup but not for 6 GB's plus....
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/th_af3bf7c5.jpg (http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/?action=view&current=af3bf7c5.jpg)

The water is still murky so running through the filter for awhile until it comes clear again.
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/th_fd182084.jpg (http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/IBC/?action=view&current=fd182084.jpg)

Just noticed this photo was taken before I added another 100 gallons approx... 378 liters...
Only need one more good rain and I will have the first FT full and part of my sump water.... couple more days of rain and I will have FT 2 filling up :D

Walks-In-Storms

2nd May 2012, 05:09

This is what I plan to do with the extra water for now.
I have a greenhouse of 3.2meters wide and 7.6 meters long (10 feet x 25 feet)
Peak is at 13.5 feet / 4.1 meters high

I will be running the 5-6 GB's now to cycle and get everything running and etc... then adding in some barrels and buckets and vertical grow space later.
So the more pump power the better but again I will be trying to run solar if I can. Might have to go see if I can find some batteries that hold more power such as large marine or tractor types. So far I've been able to run most of the greenhouse stuff off of 2 truck batteries.

Yabbies - 380w power is not bad if you can run it for 10 mins 6 times a day..... :D

Terra - yes a lot of this is figuring out the best way to use what I have in the pump etc.... A lot of the stuff I have I got for very very low cost at a surplus... so far I have only spent money on the pipe connections... still have to buy some large pipes if I can not find them somewhere soon.

Part of what I do with all my projects is I salvage things to be reused else where. I have a greenhouse made of a old portable carport frame, a shed made from another carport frame and scrap/salvaged wood, chicken coops from salvaged wood shipping crates, built my own solar panels by purchasing just the cells and wiring, setup said solar panel system with salvaged car batteries etc, rainwater collection system from salvaged food grade barrels from a food processing plant near here, etc etc you get the idea :D

I like trying to figure out how to use what I have (or can get for free) to make things work. I know its crazy sometimes...

I could go buy a pump and make a standard CHOP system but that would be buying as well as following a set "standard" and well... I'm not standard :D

I live in the city and have chickens, goats, dogs, garden, fruit trees, I preserve and store food from my garden, I have places inside the city limits where I can pick fresh organic fruits (free) for making preserves, I get wild mushrooms and smoke my own fish/meats, dehydrated fruits/jerky/veggies.... etc...

I try to teach anyone (neighbors friend etc) who wants to know how to do all this within a large expensive city at very very little cost. We have figured that even with paying for the house/land/taxes/standard bills required I live on about 1/4 to 1/6th what a average person does here in Seattle.

Oh and I don't drive... at all... so this is all done with public transport or walking :D Ya I know I'm certifiable :)

but my neighborhood loves when I give out eggs and veggies from my yard so they all tolerate me with a smile :D

I think I sense a kindred spirit. May your tribe increase, sir.

Rainwolf

2nd May 2012, 10:33

Thanks WIS!
most people just think I'm nuts... including a lot of my family but they like seeing the weird strange contraptions I think up. :D

When I started circulating the FT water to the float bed in order to filter the water of stuff that got in to my rain barrels I put in the marsh marigolds and 3 little baskets of pea gravel to start some bacteria until i get all the beds plumbed and set up. (I am have trees removed next week due to being dangerous to the homes, so everything is at halt as I might move the green house once I see where the sunshine is afterwards.)

Well I have a ton of seeds so figured what the heck and tossed in a pinch of lettuce seeds in 1, mustard greens in #2 and spinach in #3

everyone said they would do nothing..... that it was a waste of time...

well....
Here is the Lettuce...
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/36783c30.jpg

and here is the Mustard greens... and that basket was low on rocks! (added some more in on the edges)
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd413/rainwolfbirds/19686e1d.jpg

no spinach and I don't see the seeds..... wonder if one of my chooks hopped up and helped themselves..... Will continue to watch that pot just in case.

Seeds planted on the 25th of april and today is the 1st of may.... 5-6 days germination. and I will let them grow in the pots they are in to see what happens. :)

gotta love when one of my experiments does something unexpected :D