Commercial Hydro is viable why not Aqua?

[Lucas7]

Everyone please forward this website to anyone involved in Commercial Aquaponics. They are expanding across the U.S. and from what I hear offer investors a 3% return. So far they seem to be focusing on rooftop greenhouses for supermarkets, but I know for a fact they are looking "elsewhere".

All the best,

Lucas


http://www.brightfarms.com/
BrightFarms designs, finances, builds and operates hydroponic greenhouse farms at, or near, supermarkets, eliminating time, distance and cost from the food supply chain.

[RupertofOZ]

I don't think taking a hydroponics "kit" approach.. necessarily translates... or would particularly interest most ot those who are, or thinking of "commercial" aquaponics....

Nice advertisment though.... are you on commission...

[Lucas7]

Did you even bother looking at the site rupert?

They are using a recirculating hydro system, energy efficient greenhouses, locating them business where the produce is sold combating the costs of production while preserving profits, and have used the intrinsic morals of their operation to get investors and businesses to take the leap. They don't charge the supermarkets a cent they just agree to sell the produce.

If this plan doesn't help those who want to take aquaponics commercial what will?

As well, no, I wish it were so, but I do not work for them. I have been talking to people in my area about aquaponics for a while and heard of this company sniffing around. Any of my past posts would rely that I am want to forward aquaponics, not hydro. I believe anywhere hydro is feasible it can be replaced with aquaponics.

Doing the numbers for my business plan it is impossible to justify the construction on a large scale and I don't have a couple hundred thousand dollars laying around. Investors simply want too large of a return too quickly. The path I took was to join food hubs and multiple income streams to the plan(biodiesel, wormfarms, mushrooms, anaerobic digesters, compost, recycling). Where I live greenhouses are vital, this is a simpler plan locating the greenhouse on top of a supermarket.

I am going to investigate this further. I entertained the idea of roof tops but figured the system would weigh too much for 99% of roofs. A recirculating system doesn't weigh that much less and also has problems of it's own.

All the best,

Lucas

[RupertofOZ]

Yes Lucas, i did watch the video... and all their others on their website as well.... and had previously been aware, and following their "science barge"

And I'm fully in agreeance with the concept of both utlising rooftop space for food production... and the benefits of locally grown food, serving directly a local market...

For all the reasons the presentor expoused....

But, despite in one of their videos referencing "biloigical controls"... and a fleeting glimpse of some tanks....

There isn't any reference or evidence that their systems are "aquaponic"....

They constantly reference a "turnkey" aquaponics system.... based on what appears to be a locked in "franchise" style of agreement... and also, based upon fixed price contracts with buyers... for ten years.... and as you say... a 3% return to the grower...

I'm not even sure that a fixed price for ten years is going to attract buyers... let alone whether a 3% return will attract growers.... but let's leave that aside...

Firstly... virtually all hydroponic operations could be said to be "recirculating"... and they certainly have significant water reductions compared to broadacre agiculture...

But, even with automated temperature controls and nutrient dosing systems... unless they've developed a revolutionary new hydroponics technique....

All hydroponics systems are not strictly "closed loop"... and ultimately required dumping and refreshment of water supply....

If they've found a way around this... then I don't see why they'd even be bothering with their proposal.... the existing hydroponics industry would be beating a path to their doors... with cheque books in hand... already filled out...

Anyway... their "turnkey" operation appears to be hydroponic, based on NFT....

Aquaponics, especially commercial aquaponics... to date has not adopted nft style production methods... favouring DWC floating rafts...

But both methods necessitate pre-filtering of the fish water... solids removal and/or digestion/mineralisation...

Aquaponics is not simply about bolting on a fish tank to some nft trays....

And I suspect that the Brightfarms turnkey system... would not allow you to do so....

Their very own website, and model suggests that.. in their own words... they are...

BrightFarms is a finance, development and management business.

We design, finance, build and manage the operations of the BrightFarm to deliver produce at equal or higher service levels than the retailer currently requires of its other suppliers. There is no cost to the retailer to build the BrightFarm, only an obligation to purchase the output.

I very much doubt that they would allow their "model" to be incorporated into an aquaponics operation.... even if they perhaps should...

And frankly.. given their constant mention of automated systems... heating and cooling etc.... the Capex must be huge...

Especially in comparison to the DWC floating raft "commercial" systems that have become increasingly prvalent in the US lately....

I admire their goals and philosophy... and what they doing isn't anything more in practice... or intention... than those persuing commercial aquaponics....

But if you, or others are looking for a "model"... upon which to built a business paln or finance projections...

I don't think the Brightfarms opeartion is directly relevant... although the ideas and philopophy certainly are...

Brightfarms are targetting large scale production... the big end of town supermarkets... the wholesale market....

At the moment IMO... commercial aquaponics just isn't at that point... and nobody to date has really shown it to be viable at that scale....

Neither has anyone shown that the incorporation of NFT methodolgies... have any advantages or benefits over DWC raft methodologies....

And frankly... for anyone tking the gamble... and Capex requirements... to setup such large scale commercial aquaponics...

I don't think a 3% return... is going to be enough to attract them... although it might... with a garaunteed market agreement...

[Lucas7]

Thanks rupert, great breakdown.

It bothers me deeply that hydro on this scale can be sold. As you point out, a 3% return does not attract investors. It is only through the virtuous nature presented they are getting investors. Venture capitalists seem more like vultures or hyenas than a investor. I still can't believe that they can find roofs that can hold all that weight. We can have some heavy snowfall in the northern U.S. and considering the greenhouse & system would be at least be an additional 50,000 lbs, they must have to consult engineers long before attempting to get insurance.

Do you know of a study done comparing the costs of hydro to aqua?

Here is a good study I recently found:
COMMERCIAL INTEGRATED FARMING OF AQUACULTURE AND HORTICULTURE
http://agrifoodskills.site-ym.com/re..._dedezsery.pdf

Since it takes at best several months to a year to prime a system I cannot justify the costs of running it for a year with minimum production. The cost of electric is lower, while the cost of land/rent is disgusting to be anywhere near the market without being in an area that is flat out dangerous. Many of the income streams that can be added take a large initial investment with no return until years down the line.

There are some good models in my area, Growing Power of Milwaukee is doing well but they have a diverse model and are more a charity than anything. When I visited the focus was almost entirely on sprouts and since then they have become more like a food hub. There is an entire greenhouse and 60 foot by 20 foot area outside devoted to wormfarming. There is also Mushroom farming, goats, turkeys, ducks, cold frames for lettuce/cabbage, a couple hundred chickens, bee hives, half a greenhouse with an anerobic digestor, kitchen, and retail store.

New map of the headquarters.
http://www.growingpower.org/headquarters.htm

The market for the produce that is easily/cheaply grown is cornered by the few large producers. Food purveyors are not interested unless you produce several hundred thousand pounds a year.

All I can figure to do is to continue to work on my financials, hope that I win the lottery, or find a rich guy willing to give me a half million and the chance of a lifetime.

All the best,

Lucas

[mcfarm]

A couple of things; 3% does attract investors, just not the usual suspects you find in the usual places. Start looking at Slow Money for example.

Next I have bad news and it is relevant to commercial AP; the current economic paradigm (single bottom line profit maximisation) and system resilience (sustainability) are mutually exclusive. Basically unless we can get ecosystem services and social outcomes onto balance sheets, the global systems (finance, social and environmental) will collapse - guaranteed.

Here's a few questions to ponder; In a world that produces enough food for 12 billion people (UN/FAO figure) why do 1 billion remain chronically malnourished, and why do we accept the death by starvation of tens of millions every year?

In a world that produces almost twice as much food as needed, why are there calls to double food production? Why do people think that producing food for 24 million will make any difference to the chronically malnourished and starving? Is plugging more food into a demonstrably broken system going to fix it?

And for the AP dollar concious; what do you think will happen to the prices food producers receive when production increases take effect in a world that already produces too much food? Why do you think the food price trend of the last 7 decades will change if the food system remains the same? If food is a commodity and fungible, it means food producers are cost squeezed price takers.

Why is this going to change because the 'product' comes from an AP system? Sure you can develop a niche, but niches are soon occupied by other more efficient or lower cost producers, and within a decade you are back to square one - a product producing price taker.

I have spent the last decade studying the food system at post grad level and it is demonstrably broken. Every expert and politician (ag ministers/secretaries both here and abroad) I have spoken to admits the food system is broken but will do nothing significant until it collapses. Why? Because it is politically untenable to challenge the status quo - it's that simple. Even when they do something significant post collapse, it is likely to be technical fixes to prop up the existing system - just like the GFC.

It's not all doom and gloom though, groups are forming to offer viable alternatives. Problem is the solutions involve paradigm shifts that probably need a collapse to make them palatable (pun intended).

[Murray]

Unfortunately Mcfarm, I believe you are right, broadly speaking. Developing niche markets is the way to go for now and into the future. Smart businesses have always done that and will continue to shift with the times.

As for Vulture capitalists, (no it is not a typo) enough said.

It is really about effective distribution, and that will be further challenged as food miles becomes more of an issue and a road block in our currently affluent western countries.

When there is a total collapse there will suddenly not be enough food to go around, anywhere.

The small local supplier will come into their own..... I believe.

[Lucas7]

McFarm and anyone else interested, Here is info on 3 men that can almost literally fix every environmental, economic, and food associated problem facing the world.

Geoff Lawton
Greening the Desert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTHjlueqFI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gPvsl9ni-4

Sepp Holzer
Farming with Nature - A Case Study of Successful Temperate Permaculture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF6-xh34ovA

Joel Salatin
In-Depth-Look: Agricultural Business - Bloomberg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MdFSbFlksI
Polyface Farm Pt.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWYU5V8JOo
TEDxMidAtlantic - Joel Salatin - 11/5/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T9UaP1AsMI

[RupertofOZ]

You can... and definitiely should add to that list...

Bill Mollison.... who's taught permaculture worldwide for decades...

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/legends/stories/4_1.htm

Peter Andrews - Natural Sequence Farming...

http://www.naturalsequencefarming.com/

Peter Andrews is an amazing guy... can take one look at the lie of any degraded land... and tell you what you need to do... and how... to restore the land... in the blink of his eye...

[mcfarm]

Yep, and I have interacted with them all over the years - bar Bill Mollison, but I have spoken with David Holmgren a few times - I suspect a better thinker than Bill, just don't tell Bill that

The truth is none of them have 'the' answer or it would have been enacted already. They all offer necessary partial solutions to the problems we face, as there is no one silver/magic bullet. This stands the test of reason too, because a system is only as resilient/sustainable as the depth and breadth of diversity within it. This is a universal law that applies to ecosystems, social systems and economic systems (also AP systems if you think about it).

The problems have as much to do with a monoculture of minds as anything else. The dominant paradigm means we all think from within it, the only time this a paradigm changes is when the right question is asked that can only be answered from outside the paradigm. The problems exist because we are not asking the right questions - yet. These questions usually start with "why?" and never "how?"

But I digress.